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Post by SilverFox on Feb 26, 2009 22:57:44 GMT -5
Okay, I realize I haven't been around much lately, so the new people don't know me and the old folks may not consider my opinion to be valid in this case, but... since I've now been asked to sponsor this "club" idea at IPFW because I'm an employee, I feel it's time to express my opinions on the matter. I think it's absolutely great that we want to increase our membership. Generating interest and fielding more people are both awesome goals. That said, I think that creating a "club" at IPFW is a BAD idea...especially with what I've seen. Here are the reasons: 1) We are NOT a martial arts organization. You do not come out to Dagorhir and learn any form of martial arts whatsoever ... lying and putting that on the advertising flyers was a monumentally BAD idea. 2) Learning how to swing a foam sword that weighs 10 ounces and wielding a one pound shield does not make someone a good fighter outside of Dagorhir... you can't expect to be able to swing a real sword or use a real shield in the same manner... at least not with the same size weapons/shields we use. Telling people this / advertising this is also a lie. 3) Dagorhir isn't a school activity, and has no educational capacity. We are NOT re-enactors, and are not recreating anything historically. 4) Using IPFW as a "free-ride" to get money for weapons, etc seems rather underhanded to me. I've seen plenty of school clubs get turned down for money to send people to actual educational events...us taking more of that away seems wrong, that's if we could even get any.....which I highly doubt (unless we lie about it's use...which takes us back to the main issue) 5) I (and most of you) are well aware of some of the activities that go on at some Dag events. If ANY of that were found out by the school or student government, we would instantly lose the "club", and I could even LOSE MY JOB if I were to sponsor it. Is that really worth the minimal money we might get? No. 6) Fighting in a parking garage....are you F'ing serious?!?! Or fighting in a gym, on a basketball court, right next to 2 other basketball courts (with no dividers between any of them)? The gym is more admirable than the parking garage...especially if you'd be fighting in the parking garage against campus police rules...that's exactly the kind of negative image we don't need. Okay, I know this has all been negative, but let me soften the blow a little bit. I realize the "club" idea has some positive things about it and could generate more interest. It has merit. I'm also a huge fan of Dag, and miss being out there. Dag has a great bunch of people and I'm really happy to see increased interest. That said, I don't think this "club" is the right thing to do, especially not if we have to lie about even one single thing that happens at Dag. I also feel that lying about it belittles who we are and only brings down the image of Dag (and other such activities) as a whole....do we really need any more negative press? May have more thoughts later. Peace, Silverfox
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Post by Bishop on Feb 27, 2009 9:41:00 GMT -5
min weight on blue is 12 oz fox
i love you.
I have to kinda put my thoughts together on this one more before an actual well thought out post but here's my general idea. I like the growth and I would like it to continue. We do need to watch how we proceed however and I will post more on that later.
To the new IPFW recruits dont think that this bodes bad for you or that this makes you look bad in any way. I think I've met all of you and you are cool dudes that I'm glad we have got to meet and fight.
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Post by Mizzletis on Feb 27, 2009 10:39:54 GMT -5
I see two sides to this.
Fox, as an employee, I totally agree with you. For something you put your name on/put your neck on the line for, I would be a bit bothered by some of this too. I def wouldn't want something I originally backed to end up being a thorn in my side later. Totally see your point.
Allow me to throw some stuff out there though to maybe ease some concerns.
1) The definition of martial arts is simply a system of training for some form of physical combat. I mean, that's seriously just the simplified definition from Webster's. Now we might not have the history or institutionalization of Karate or stuff like that, but we aren't all that far off.
2) I'd like to argue that your second point is just not valid. I used to be a real pansy when it came to anything physical before I got into Dag, but since then I've learned to take some pain. I've learned some basic principals of how people react when they are getting something swung at them. Cmon man, you can even see this as the difference between a noobie and a vet. The physical training some of us do outside of dag to increase our abilities by itself is enough to qualify as making them a better fighter. As far as expecting to use a real sword/shield in the same manner, when was the last time you have seen a serious, non-sport, real sword and shield battle?! Now if I got in a fight on the street or something, I wouldn't be able to find a sword, but I'm sure as heck gonna find a stick or two, and be sure that Dag has trained me enough to at least do some form of nasty stick fighting.
As far as the 10 oz thing, dude a fencing epee sword can weigh as little as 5 oz.
3) This is somewhat valid. We could be doing more historical battle re-enactment, but we are getting inspired by historical equipment to make garb and armor.
4) I agree. Accept, I'm also an alum and I paid my tuition for 6 years, part of that I'm sure was going to clubs I didn't agree with. I'm alright with some of my old tuition going for dag.
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Post by Milly continued on Feb 27, 2009 10:44:48 GMT -5
5) Yes, yes, and yes. Fox don't sponsor it. 6) As someone who used to speed roller blade down from top of the parking garages... I agree this is a bad idea. That's why we need level headed people that know the rules to help run this IPFW thing so that type of bad idea doesn't happen. To be honest, if all we get from IPFW is a warm place to practice in the winter and a little bit of PR, that's great.
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Post by Ska'ar Wulfsiger on Feb 27, 2009 11:20:34 GMT -5
To be honest, if all we get from IPFW is a warm place to practice in the winter and a little bit of PR, that's great. QFT But Fox does make some good points. We want GOOD PR. As far as historical educational type stuffs, I think the occassional garb/leatherworking/metalworking workshops would constitute not lying about that...but it's gotta be something that happens at least once every couple months, otherwise it would pretty much be a lie. There are plenty of Dag-related things that could be done for club meetings that would qualify...a demonstration on "how to cure your own drinking horn" for example, or "using chain mail weave to make jewelry" and so on. The problem is, we don't really have tons of people in this chapter who are necessarily great at all this stuff, so it may be one of those things where we'd have to bring in "guest speakers" from other older realms like Pentwyvern and such. The martial arts thing is debatable. We train to field in units and fight with some form of battlefield tactics. Dag benefits us in developing defensive movements, feints, endurance, dexterity, and overall flexibility, much like any other martial art. Whether the actual fighting applies to the real world, again, that's debatable, but as was noted a few months ago, we'd probably make a good riot squad armed with police shields and billy clubs. :-P We do need to be very careful about how we present ourselves in the fliers, and we need to be very careful how we present ourselves when on campus (this includes our language at the Dolnick center!!!) and obviously, as much as we should encourage people to come to events, it should be warned that events are a much different experience than practices; all sorts of tomfoolery may go on. Camping and feasting after events are where we, as a great big Daggie family, wind down from our turbulent lives and just cut loose and have a great time. But it ain't like any other family campout!!! So I can most definitely see Fox's concerns there about some IPFW rep wanting to tag along for the ride to a big event and being horrified at the post-battle insanity. lol
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Post by Furyun on Feb 27, 2009 12:00:55 GMT -5
I'm only covering things other people didn't seeing as I am the most informed person dealing with IPFW rulles and regulations (that i'm aware of)
3. Lots of other schools have dag groups and get funding, its exercise and that’s how we have portrayed it. What education capacity is the “magic the gathering club”?
4. IPFW has a million dollar budget and must use it by the end of the year, they can’t wait to fund groups, if they can spend $2,300 on pizza for a religious club for a year they can drop $500 for some weapon materials for student use. I say this from firsthand experience as I’ve been a student council member.
Every club gets $500 in the first 6 months. After that it depends on what you need to further the group if you can prove you need it, up to $10,000. We can hire guest speakers, rent equipment, pay for advertising, buy anything that we can account for and have good reason too.
5. Totally right. I have however read the fine print and can sit down with you and the student body president to garentee your not held liable; nothing off Campos will be affiliated with IPFW in any way, no busses, E-mails, event fees, camping trips, gas, or even a mention of it, nothing. I can totally remove all instances of camping events from everything with little effort. Even have students sign an acknowledgment that camping events are not related to IPFW if you would feel better, then its just people on their own time going to these things. (The constitution has been drafted but not submitted.)
6. That is totally valid and it was a bad idea, it was someone else’s that got great enthusiastic remarks one day, that’s why I posted. It was discussed openly for all to criticize and give opinion about. It was shot down quick, that’s what the message boards are for.
Please voice your concerns. I want you to be comfortable and sure that you want to do it. And if not its totally fine we will eventually find someone.
Capt. Wolf Fridays are set up to do just that, guest speakers, crafting of gear, garb, and maybe some pizza.
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Post by zingwing on Feb 27, 2009 12:11:50 GMT -5
Just a little note of using funding to buy supplies for weapons, sheilds, ect. We have and anime club at the school and we do get a budget for the club and last year we used out budget to get a new speaker system for the clubs since the one we were using died. I would think as long as your using the money for the club and club activities your fine.
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Post by Ska'ar Wulfsiger on Feb 27, 2009 12:22:25 GMT -5
Very good points. I wasn't going to bring it up until later, but having the club does present great PR opportunities for use of IPFW funding in good ways as well. For instance, what better way to get some funding than to team up with the history dept. and get funding to bring a guest speaker to campus for one of those omnibus lecture things from The History Channel or the like to discuss medieval warfare from a historical context? That could be fun, exciting, and informative!
Also, just having a student organization will get us not just access to IPFW funding, but also I think more importantly - FUNDRAISING opportunities. What better chance at both some good PR and some quick funds for foamy goodness, than something as quick and easy as a bake sale? Event tables are also great, selling bottled water or lemonade or the like at the 4th of July Fireworks, etc.
There are all sorts of GREAT opportunities to having the organization. I think the concerns will be easily cleared up and dealt with, but they must be brought up in order to do so, therefore ultimately I think this is a good thread. I think people should continue addressing concerns here as they think of them to make sure during these early formative days they can be cleared up.
Also, idk if I ever mentioned it to you Fury, but I used to be VP for SPSA (then it was just PSA) back a few years ago when I was on campus, so I have SOME experience in running an organization and dealing with all the bureaucracy, so if you want any tips and pointers that you haven't already learned from Student Gov. lemme know and I can sit down with ya. ;-) Man, I need to get my stuffs in gear and get back into school this fall so I can do more with this. lol
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Post by Bishop on Feb 27, 2009 15:06:42 GMT -5
I agree with some of the stuff and disagree with others. I think everyone can stand on the same ground however that IPFW is a good resource and should be treated as one and that this oppurtunity needs to pursued in the correct manner. I think that the NS chapter should get together and discuss the IPFW situation. We need to be able to agree on the direction and the varying courses of action that we should take. NS is lucky to have lots of people that are capable leaders, there are sometimes problems with having too many leaders if the leaders wanna be leaders for wrong reasons. (please see www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=12884.0) Fox I agree, if you have concerns about you being tied to this, then don't until we can adress the concerns in a better manner. I love the internet and the communication it provides, but I also hate the internet for all the wrong stuff it can communicate. Certain converstions happen online that would never happen face to face. Also any new organization needs to have to have the structure and rules implemented first. I think we need to take a few steps back, discuss some future of NS and go from there. I smell T-bell...or my mom's cooking
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Post by alatis on Feb 27, 2009 15:42:18 GMT -5
i haven't read the other posts yet so im sorry if this is repeating. tucker, your awesome and i hold nothing against you, i just disagree and im sorry if i sound harsh.
i1). agree, the martial arts factor is wrong to say.
2). arguable, it can make the weak used to fighting and safe combat. it can make you confident, and stronger. if you have never been aggressive, dag can provide a safe environment to see 'what its like'.
3). Jujitsu Club Hockey Club Rugby Football Club Water-ski and Wakeboard Team Wrestling Club
these are all the club ipfw sports.
history? educational purpose? no, recreation. for fun.
fencing is an olympic sport, and it has college, even high school clubs. its recreation. a hobby. for fun
Dagorhir is a (soon to be) club sport.
for fun a hobby
its a club sport, not club decathlon, or w/e
4). i attended a speech by the student government president in my business class the other day. she was talking about opportunities, advantages of students. she mentioned tuition distribution a little. about a million dollars is given to the student government each year, and about 150 grand of that is for travel expenses. she said for clubs and even personal use. one club recently got 10 grand to go to dc this may. all expenses paid. a single student wrote a paper on how she wanted to go to egypt this summer to see the tombs and stuff. 2500 bucks, all expenses paid.
wrestling, jujitsu, can get some, a student can, we can get what we need to have for some gear or trip costs.
5). alcohol and tobacco have become (albeit a bit sad) a big part of society. if it is separate from the sport and not required to be a part of, then its way besides the fact. at rag people drink, as long as either its legal and none of the underage ipfw kids take part. ipfw should not care.
thats like at a wakeboarding competition, the boat next to ipfw is going on a boose cruz, and the ipfw club getting in trouble for being there when it happens.
if ipfw isnt apart of illegal activities, then we cant be blamed for someone not a part of ipfw doing something legal . if we do, id be willing to take it to court even.
this includes illegal drugs, even if the person not with ipfw does something illegal, we cant be blamed for it, especially if its off the field and not apart if the sport.
dont make it sound like were a bunch of crazy drunks who get high and hit people with sticks, while lying to 'daddy' to get more money for something fake.
were not. Dagorhir is a national organization with lots of people and other college clubs that associate with dag. including Prudue in west laffyette.
i think the ipfw is a great idea and has lots of potential.
disclaimer:
-Sorry if i assumed things and was wrong, or said incorrect information, or had lots of grammar/spelling errors. im not gunna take time and make this a formal post. you guys are my friends and im keeping this casual.
-i love you all, and im sorry if i sounded like a douche/ass. i love debating and i get hyped up quick
-i never hold grudges, or like to rehash old issues and it takes a LOT to make me mad or not like someone, so dont think im gunna be mad at people who disagree. i wont.
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Post by SilverFox on Feb 27, 2009 19:12:01 GMT -5
Well, first off, thanks to everyone for tossing in feedback...this is definitely the sort of talking we need to have about things like this.
Even if we're dealing with the semantics of "martial arts" and fighting skills, I still feel there's been a bit of dishonesty in how things have been represented on campus (referring to the fliers I've seen). Tim (and others), I agree that Dag does give you some support in being able to stand up in a real world fight situation... BUT: I consider myself to be a decent (and that may be a big stretch of the word decent) Dag fighter, but I'm still pretty sure I'd get owned in a real fight. Just ask Rowan about me and the punching bag at O's, lol.
Whether the student government can write-up some form of constitution that makes IPFW not liable for activities off campus is rather irrelevant. I personally don't feel comfortable signing my name as the representative to Dag for the school...there's just too much possibility that someone (and this could be ANYONE) could screw up and I get drug through the mud for it. I know a faculty member or two on campus that might be cool with the whole Dag thing, but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with putting their good name on the line either. I may be wrong, but that's honestly how I feel.
Alatis, are you honestly willing to stand up for anyone and everyone from Fort Wayne (future Dagorhirim you may not have even met) and say that they won't do something illegal? While guilt through association is possible, it's also possible that one of our own people would do something stupid. That said, and I'm sad that I have to clarify this: I WAS NOT implying that everyone at Dag likes to do nothing but get drunk/screw/fight. But it's an undeniable fact that those things go on, and have more than once gotten Dag groups in trouble in their local area (and yes, this can be said for any activity group, not just Dag).
Yeah, I'm at work, so I may have more to post later. Continue talking peeps, discussion is good.
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Post by Magnus on Feb 27, 2009 19:44:45 GMT -5
When I saw the new fliers for Dag listing it as a martial art around campus, I got to admit I was a bit confused.
While I do understand the points made for calling it a martial art. By definition it is, but most people, when they think of martial art, don't think of the definition but of the fighting styles. Which is where I can see the trouble coming from.
Though with some of the fighting I've seen we do have a bit in common(at least while doing Florentine) with escrima, I think.
That was really the only thing that really threw me off.
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Post by Furyun on Feb 27, 2009 22:21:39 GMT -5
OK OK I admittedly got frustrated with the amount roll play and LARP talk from the communicator story, "Dragorhir" and people writing LAPERS, I love lygers, and other B.S. on fliers I've set up. Ive been playing this game just under a year and have yet to see any roll play other than deaths, armor, and names and its frustrating.
I Have put up a new set of fliers around campus every other week seance I started this endeavor, two plus months ago. Ive written out a full 10 page constitution, filed and re-filled paperwork, organized and messaged the 25 people that have responded, have had multiple meetings and conversations with more people about getting us a space than I care to talk about, the only thing stopping us from getting funding is an adviser, and am doing the best I can with no help except grammar from Seth. After all this I'm criticized.
I thought a change of pace was in order, so i wrote "LEARN TO FIGHT: with the martial art Dagorhir" for an attention grabber--- Guess what... It worked. What do we do for hours at the park? We FIGHT! We are not "laying on" or roll playing. We are swining weapons with a simulated intent to kill oneanother, for fun... more of a Tyler Durdan club than a LARP any day.
I don't see this as lying in any way, it states what it is as clear as day regardless if I called it a martial art.
How would you describe what we do and appeal to the non roll player at IPFW?
I'm not whining, I am not trying to take over anything I'm just trying to help out my chapter and am frustrated with people who are not directly involved talking about things they don't know anything about, when its the things I have done thats up for debate.
I'm a lot of things but i am NOT a lier Ill put the fliers back to the old ones on Tuesday.
UGGGHH... ... ... there I feel better ;D
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Post by Mizlitletis on Feb 27, 2009 23:54:34 GMT -5
Lier - One who lays... Liar - One who lies... I'M HELPFUL!!! But in all seriousness, fury, you are passionate about this right now, so I say keep running with it. B and I tried messing around with this years ago and didn't get as far. Keep in mind nobody's attacking, everyone is spit-balling. Thats what makes the world go round. Board based communication sucks cause it doesn't carry non-verbals, try to take everything written by everyone in best light, cause chances are we didn't type it the best way we could have to dictate our best meanings... (All your base belong to us.)
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Post by Ska'ar Wulfsiger on Feb 28, 2009 5:00:33 GMT -5
Exactly what Bish and Mil said. 100% Not everyone can write with the intended tone, and often in the heat of discussion we get passionate about something and try to "read between the lines" when there was nothing between them.
As far as something to market Dag to non-LARP types without necessarily calling it a "martial art" and potentially misleading some into thinking it's related to one of the traditional forms...hmmm. Well, there's "Full Contact Battle Sport" for one..."Medieval-Fantasy Battle Sport" is another. I've used both of those and usually the response is "oh, that's SO cool! I know people who do that! You mean like with the sticks, or live steel, or what?" It usually leads to an interesting discussion, and I've even had a couple people swing by the check it out. Granted, they haven't returned, but mostly that's not due to lack of interest from said parties but lack of time for the commitment.
Using words like "battle sport" and "full contact" tend to immediately drive away notions of "LIGHTNING BOLT!" *chucks beanbag* (No offense to the SL peeps!)
Usually the conversation progresses, once I tell them that we use foam padded weapons for safety purposes so that we can engage full combat, rather than be impeded by hundreds of safety restrictions and months of training required by groups like SCA who use ratan or groups like Adria who do live steel, to nods of "that makes sense" I then describe how we engage in unit tactics, line engagements, flanking, and we field all means of fighters from basic sword n' shield warriors to more exotic akimbo/florentine styles, to polearms to spears to archers, etc. We do it all!
I think what would be a great idea, is maybe Sunday either before or after practice, some of us should get together, like Bish said, and brainstorm on stuff. Then, if you'd like, being I am a freelance writer, I could take the ideas set up and agreed upon and draft up the text for your flier out of it with all good grammars and spellings and suchness and email it to you.
And just to clarify on any points here that you might have misunderstood, I for one truly appreciate the efforts you've put forth to get this IPFW club going. I think it's a great idea overall. I'm just trying to address some of the concerns and present compromises or solutions, because that's what I do. I'm not a leader, but I'm not a follower. I'm a diplomat. ;-)
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